In Episode #20, Joe Raboine chats with Brittney Cleveland, a Realtor with Home Luxury Real Estate. The two explore the influence of outdoor living spaces on the real estate market, particularly in light of recent market dynamics, the ever-changing preferences of homeowners, how contractors can benefit from working with realtors in their area, and much more. For more information, visit Belgard.com/InsideOut.
Products Mentioned: Rooms, Outdoor Firepits
Joe Raboine
Welcome back to Inside Out with Belgard, a podcast made for professionals by professionals who are passionate about outdoor living. I’m your host, Joe Raboine, and we’re thrilled to bring you the latest insights from some of the top experts in the industry.
Welcome back to another edition of Inside Out with Belgard. Today I’m thrilled to welcome Brittney Cleveland to the podcast. Brittney, how are you doing?
Brittney Cleveland
I’m good, how are you, Joe?
Joe Raboine
Great. I was reading your bio beforehand, and it says that you are a part of the Atlanta Realtor, one of the founding members of the Home Luxury Real Estate Company. Is that correct?
Brittney Cleveland
I am, yes. I have been in real estate for seven years, started with a big local brokerage and then started Home Luxury Real Estate back in 2021. So smaller boutique style firm, but really loving it so far. It’s been great.
Joe Raboine
Awesome. Well, good. Well, the real estate market has been a little crazy the last few years.
Brittney Cleveland
It has. It’s been really wild and competitive, especially in times like 2020 when there were lots of question marks and pause. It only proved to be a great time to invest and we’ve seen values increase pretty significantly the past few years.
Joe Raboine
Yeah, it’s been interesting. I know we talk a lot about how COVID has impacted our business the last few years. And you know what happened during 2020 with us, I think mirrors a lot of what happened with real estate. There was a pause to some degree, and then it just skyrocketed. And we saw incredible investment happening in the backyard. And I’m sure you guys have seen the impact I would suspect at least of what outdoor living has done or is doing for real estate, real estate prices, values, buyer requests, kind of all of that.
Brittney Cleveland
Exactly. And it’s one of those things where at the time, you know, let’s say 2020 2021, when people are putting money into their outdoor living spaces, it was more for the purpose of them getting to better enjoy their time outside and enjoying their yards. And now that it’s been a few years since then, they’re finding that when they put their properties on the market, despite us being on the other side of the pandemic, it’s still a huge selling point to have nice outdoor living areas, whether it be a patio, a screened in porch, an outdoor kitchen, a pool. Those are really important to today’s buyers still.
Joe Raboine
That’s good to hear. It’s interesting. We go back, you know, prior to the pandemic, a lot of the builders that we talked to weren’t at the time, I would say, not necessarily interested in adding outdoor living as a feature for their homes. In fact, I remember specifically, this is probably at least five years ago, talking to many and they were, I think the general sentiment was, well, you know, that’s great, but you know, we don’t want to detract from features that people are looking for, like the kitchen, for instance, or upgraded master bedroom and bathroom suites. But it feels like for sure that shifted that people are now and builders are telling us this, that they’re coming to us saying that if we don’t have these spaces, we will lose the sale potentially for that, for that buyer. Are you seeing some of that as well where people are just listing it as a top priority almost as a feature that they, they want in a new home?
Brittney Cleveland
Absolutely. And especially when we talk new construction and flips, buyers are still going to expect to have the landscaping and the outdoor living. And if that is not completed by the builder, then it leads the buyer to believe that something might be wrong with the house because it’s indicative that maybe the builder was skimping in areas. And I’ve seen a lot of times where it is a great product and it’s a nice house, but for whatever reason at the finish line, the builder or developer chose not to invest in landscaping or outdoor living. And it kind of serves to be a disappointing property for that buyer.
Joe Raboine
I mean, it seems to make sense, right? During COVID, what we believe happened is that because all of us were essentially forced to stay home, we kind of rediscovered our backyard in some way.
Brittney Cleveland
Completely.
Joe Raboine
And felt better being in that space. So it’s almost like the baseline shifted where it used to be kind of a, oh, it’s a nice to have, right? I mean, I might add that someday.
But it seems to have shifted where people are asking for it as a, as a need to have, right? It’s like, Oh, I need this space. Um, and if it doesn’t have it, I might just pass by this home and look for one that has it already.
Joe Raboine
So one of the interesting things when we talk to contractors is, you know, they’re always trying to articulate to the homeowner what value this investment in outdoor living would bring. Right. Cause a lot of people, most people are always looking at what’s the ROI of this project. First of all, I would say if you’re going to be there a long time, the ROI, I mean, it’s hard to place a value on something that is benefiting your life on a daily basis. So for me personally, it’s like, how much use are you getting? How much is this improving your life? But naturally people want to make sure they’re not over indexing, over spending for that home.
One of the things that we would say is on an average home, you know, landscaping and outdoor living in general could be 25 to 30%, 35% of that home’s value. Now, you know, you obviously have to make sure you’re not over-investing in that home and that in the neighborhood that you’re in, but if all that lines up and, you know, you have that room or that ability to do that, does those numbers seem accurate to you that, you know, maybe 25, 30% of that home’s value could go into, and I would say also the caveat of being a well-designed, well-installed space, because if you put in a project that’s not that, it could have a detrimental impact too. But do those numbers seem accurate to you?
Brittney Cleveland
They do, yeah. And it’s all going to be within reason because we have to consider the comps within the neighborhood, the property value, and of course the cost of any project that’s being taken on. But you said it earlier, I mean, if it’s a project where the homeowner can see themselves really enjoying it throughout the next few years that they plan on being there and considering that most of these landscaping outdoor living projects we consider do have a great ROI, I think that it makes sense financially to go ahead and do it.
And I say go ahead and do it because there are some homeowners who choose to wait until they’re closer to putting their property on the market to take on projects where they can see a positive ROI. And then once they complete the project, they think, why didn’t I do this years ago? This is so great. I’m really enjoying it.
Joe Raboine
Yeah, I love to hear that. I mean, I was a contractor for a long time and it’s interesting. I have so many, you know, anecdotal interactions with clients where they’ll, they’ll bring that up. So, you know, I, someone may have done it for even unknown reasons invested in some of those spaces. But inevitably they would come back and say, man, this really had, this has really made an impact in my life, you know, for a lot of reasons, right. They’re spending time more time with their, you know, significant others, maybe with their children, maybe their grandchildren, maybe their neighbors, um, or all of the above. And so for us, it’s interesting because we just recently, um, started digging into, you know, some of the research behind the drivers of this, right.
And this idea that you know, we need to be connected to, you know, natural environments and we need to be connected socially is what we believe is really driving outdoor living. I mean, cause you think about the spaces, they are designed to entertain, to relax, to have conversations. And you’re doing it in a natural environment, which, which generally feels better overall. So it makes sense why, why people want these spaces and why we’ve seen this explosive growth.
It’s interesting to hear your perspective of what you’re saying when it comes to buyers, because some of this, you know, we do focus groups and some of it’s just through anecdotal feedback through our contracting networks. But to hear it from you firsthand, you know, what your clients are asking for, I think, you know, kind of further substantiates that.
I think it’s interesting. I don’t know that people always understand why they want these spaces. Do you have people that are coming to you with very specific reasons or are they just asking for an outdoor living space or saying, I want a pool? I mean, do you get into discussions, just curious, about how they’ll utilize some of these spaces so it kind of helps you formulate a plan to look for homes for them?
Brittney Cleveland
I do, yeah. I always like to understand the why behind every item on a client’s wish list. And when it comes to outdoor living, I would say top of the list is probably for entertaining. People like to have friends and family over. And when you have outdoor living space, that’s an extension of your home. That’s not included in your property square footage, but it’s where a lot of my clients do end up spending most of their time.
Especially in Georgia where we experience so many warm months, people just prefer to be outside, especially when they’re hosting and have friends over, whether they’re grilling out or swimming or have a fire going in an outdoor fireplace or a fire pit. It just tends to be where people prefer to host.
And it’s also a place where people generally feel safer. And I say safer from a wellness standpoint because when you look at 2020 as people were encouraged to be socially distant from one another, if you had a good outdoor living space, people felt safe then visiting you and spending time in your yard on your patio where they felt that they weren’t at as high of a risk of getting sick.
Joe Raboine
That is an interesting point that you’re right. I mean, that is the first place that we started to get back together, right? Where it was in that outdoor environment.
So when you start thinking about some of the shifts that have happened in the last few years with regard to that, um, one of the things we, we think about or talk about a lot is that a lot of areas, especially in areas that are closer to the city center, um, older neighborhoods that are being redeveloped where they’re, you know, knocking down smaller houses, building larger homes that are on, on relatively small lots. We see this shift happening where a lot of those people may have moved in from larger suburban lots further out that had maybe a half acre, acre, or so, and now all of a sudden they’re in a smaller footprint. Are people asking for outdoor living spaces and in different space…
We see some examples of that where they may be adding like a courtyard to the front yard or trying to do something along the side lot line, you know, where they’re trying to maximize space. Are you seeing examples of that happening in the markets that you’re in?
Brittney Cleveland
I am. I do work in town, so I experience this a lot where it’s a client who is considering a property on a smaller lot and if it doesn’t have the outdoor living space there already, they at least want the option. And so it’s important for these buyers to get surveys and understand exactly where the property lot lines are because with setbacks, it’s important to consider, is it even an option for you to put in a pool or a hardscape patio? You want to make sure you’re not building over property lines.
Joe Raboine
We’re trying to develop products that kind of address that market. And I know, depends on the municipality, but depending on the feature that they’re looking for, it can be difficult to, let’s say, develop a side lot, outdoor living space. I think though, a lot of times on these spaces, people assume they can’t have an outdoor living space just because in their mind, it’s just, it’s not a large, it’s not a large suburban estate lot.
But if you think about what you can do in a 20 foot by 20 foot area, let’s say between a home and a detached garage, if it’s a neighborhood like that, or in the front yard. I think with, with creative design, there’s certainly a lot that can happen. And I would suspect those homes are typically in, in the, the lots and areas that are closer to the city can be very expensive, right? So it’s not like, um, they, they wouldn’t have the means to do that, right? It’s if, if they had a design that could be utilized. It seems like the client would still be interested in adding a space like that.
Brittney Cleveland
Exactly. And I would say that half the battle there is for them just to have the vision. But a lot of these buyers do now have the vision because of everything that y’all are able to do by coming in and being creative with these smaller spaces. And oftentimes, buyers are seeing a lot of homes before they choose to purchase one. And so they’re seeing great outdoor features within small lot lines and understand that that’s something they too could accomplish if it’s on a lot that doesn’t already have an existing outdoor living space.
Joe Raboine
You know, one of the tools that we developed during COVID was this, something that we call Belgard Rooms. And essentially what it is, is if, when a consumer is doing any kind of project or homeowners doing a project, it can be overwhelming, right? So you think about something, especially as, uh, like a blank canvas as a backyard, right? Where there’s a lot of options, there’s a lot of different opinions.
And people can get frustrated, you know, right out of the get-go of not knowing who to talk to, not knowing if they should buy a design or not. And so one of the things that we did is, you know, because our products, we essentially sell a bulk product. We took these products and we, we made them into spaces. And what I mean by that is we took them and designed them into virtual environments that are divided out by what we call Rooms.
So we’ve segmented the backyard into outdoor kitchens, living rooms, dining rooms, pool and spas, all of those different types of things to try to connect it with the consumer so that if you as a consumer or you were talking to a client, for instance, said I really want an outdoor kitchen, rather than just looking on our website and seeing a beautiful inspirational kitchen, they see a designed product that has all of the components, has the dimensions.
And so as part of that, what we’re hoping is, and we’re starting to see this, is that they start looking at the space as a product. And we kind of get away from, I mean, selfishly for us, we love to think it’s all about our products, but we know that they’re buying the space and that the product is just part of achieving that, that dream essentially of that space.
So, we’re just trying, you know, thinking through ways to speed up that process. So for instance, you mentioned fire pits before. A contractor could take a one of our fire pit rooms, one of our outdoor living rooms and put a “starting at” price on it. And, you know, perhaps work with, you know, again, realtors and other professionals such as yourselves, say, Hey, I could offer this, you know, all things being equal in terms of access, and it’s a, you know, a new space, let’s say, or a blank space, that this fire pit area or this outdoor living room is $10,000 or 20,000, whatever it might be.
Our thought is that it could help speed that process up and really take some of that frustration out of that experience for the consumer.
In thinking through your interactions with your clients, does that seem like something that would resonate with them?
Brittney Cleveland
I think that is hugely helpful because oftentimes homeowners just stop themselves in their tracks because they feel overwhelmed by how many different options there are and just the wide variety of directions you can go in with a project feels very overwhelming. So they decide not to do it at all. So if there were pre-designed options and they understood exactly what those costs would be, I think it would make the decision-making process so much easier.
Joe Raboine
So if you think about a lot of our audience are contractors and designers who are in the outdoor living space. And I guess if you think from your perspective, I mean, what are some of the, I guess, hot button requests that are coming through when somebody says I want an outdoor living space?
Brittney Cleveland
I would say top of the list that I’m seeing right now is probably a screened in porch. And that’s because in Georgia, while we have these great warm months we can enjoy, it’s also very buggy and your outdoor furniture can get dirty and it can be harder to enjoy those spaces unless it’s enclosed. And of course that enclosed space doesn’t count as square footage, but it lives like more square footage on your home. So you know, I’ve seen teeny tiny screened in porches where it’s still a huge selling point to a buyer or a huge benefit to that homeowner because it’s an enclosed space where they can enjoy being outdoors without having to deal with the elements. People love their screened in porches even when it’s raining. I sit on my screened in porch when it’s thundering outside and I love it.
I would say right behind screened in porches is probably fire pit or outdoor fireplace. Of course, an outdoor fireplace is a huge selling point, but if someone’s looking to save a bit more money, even just doing a hard scaped fire pit area with some Adirondack chairs where you can enjoy time with family and friends and grilling out or roasting marshmallows, it’s just a really strong draw to buyers and my clients who have invested in added fire pits and outdoor fireplaces rave about how they use them all the time.
Joe Raboine
It’s interesting you said fireplaces. It sounds like the, that’s one of those pieces that has this kind of romantic appeal to it, I feel like, right? It’s just something about the fire pit as this kind of visual anchor that just resonates with people. But you’re right, it can add some cost for sure.
Brittney Cleveland
Yeah, and I think that part of that too is oftentimes when people either see an existing outdoor fireplace or envision one at their own property, they’re imagining a big TV right above it where they can sit and watch football.
Joe Raboine
So it sounds like a typical buyer today is, is looking for an outdoor living space, right, when they, when they’re looking for a new home. If they happen to love the home, but doesn’t have a space, what are some ways that, um, that our contracting network could work with realtors such as yourself to kind of, I guess, explain their services and better understand what that could look like. So if a client wants to purchase a house, you know, you could maybe articulate what, what that experience could look like and what some of the materials and options are on the market.
Brittney Cleveland
Right. So first and foremost, I think it’s going to be important to have that established relationship with a realtor. So when they’re at the property and are talking to a buyer who may have reservations about limited outdoor living space, they can quickly refer you and get you over there where you can take a look and give them a creative idea of how they could make it work for them and their family.
So if you’re looking for ways to build and grow those relationships with realtors, I would suggest reaching out to various brokers in the area that you work in and scheduling a time where you may be able to come and speak to the agents in their office at a sales meeting. Sales meetings normally take place on Tuesday mornings, and that would be an opportunity for you to introduce yourself, and not just sell yourself and your product and your service and what you can offer, but also to explain to agents how they can be a better asset to their clients and give creative ideas where if they are struggling with a buyer who’s on the fence and having a hard time envisioning how they could creatively use a small space outdoors, that they could give you a call, get you over there, and make sure that their buyers are well taken care of.
Joe Raboine
Awesome. I love that. I think, you know, much of business is about relationships and networking, right? And you think about, you know, it makes sense if the first let’s say, for example, you know, a home has an existing driveway that’s in bad shape, right? Where you would, you could say, you know, you could get a paver driveway, for instance, for X amount, roughly, just so they have an idea, or you could add a fire pit area or a screen porch or one of those features. I think that’s super helpful. And then, obviously, someone you feel comfortable with both ways, there seems to be, there could be tremendous opportunities for both sides to network in that regard with some of these properties.
Brittney Cleveland
Exactly. And even hearing you talk about driveways, I mean, in Atlanta, I’m in old neighborhoods a lot. I live in an old neighborhood. So I see torn up driveways all the time where the roots have completely compromised the driveway. And it’s a big deterrent for buyers. So even just to be able to bring up a ballpark or mention the option of doing a paver driveway, you know, would be great.
Joe Raboine
One last thing I wanted to talk about when it comes to, we touched on ROI earlier, but when it comes to financing, how important is it for, you know, you obviously have to work with appraisers and lenders to try to get these spaces approved. You mentioned that they don’t necessarily look at the outdoor space in the same way, obviously, as a complete space.
I feel like it’s still relatively new as a trend. Is that something that you see as a challenge or is it something that they are able to look at comps for?
Brittney Cleveland
Right. So I would say it’s not as much a challenge with appraisers and lenders as it can be with buyers because there are some buyers out there who are very hung up on what is the price per square foot of this home and they don’t look outside of that. But I would say that has changed a lot in the past few years and buyers are looking beyond price per square foot, which means looking at that outdoor space.
And if there is a screened-in porch or a deck or obviously a pool. I mean, those are things that add great value. And so we’re finding that people, when I say people, buyers are less hung up and focused on price per square foot. And of course, appraisers, like I said, I’m just not seeing it as being a big issue with them because they know to look for these things and they fully understand how much value outdoor living and added improvements on the lot add to a property.
Joe Raboine
So Brittney, you know, we talked a lot about the growth in outdoor living and how COVID affected that. I think the elephant in the room is, everyone knows interest rates are much higher than they were last year and a couple of years ago for sure.
You know, we know that’s impacted the growth of the outdoor living business. I mean, we’ve overall, the industry’s relatively flat over last year. Again, the caveat is it’s on top of double digit growth over several years. So we grew massively. So we’re still, we still created a new baseline of business for the industry, but are you working with clients who had anticipated moving, who maybe now are thinking of staying for a little while and investing or, I guess, what are your thoughts on how that may or may not have impacted what we’re talking about with outdoor living spaces and I guess home improvements in general?
Brittney Cleveland
Right. So I can say that I have plenty of clients who I have met with, I have talked to them about what they can do to get their homes market ready. They’ve been searching and I’ve been sending them properties and then ultimately they decide we really can’t get comfortable with the idea of a move based off of what a low rate we’ve locked into at our current home. But something has to give, we don’t have enough space, we need to add on, we need to make improvements where we can better enjoy our home, and one of those improvements is outdoor living.
So despite the higher rates, people are comfortable making those changes to their homes knowing that they’re going to be there longer than they anticipated and they want to make it as comfortable and enjoyable as possible.
Joe Raboine
That’s a good point. I mean, I think we kind of touched on it almost a little bit earlier in the conversation. But, you know, if someone is not going to move for a few years, I mean, and given what we think the ROI is, it does make sense to, especially if they’re locked in a low rate, to invest in that home to bring that value up because, you know, we know there’s a huge pent up demand for homes. So if rates drop, that’ll probably increase it even more and probably drive prices up, unfortunately, even a little bit higher than they are.
So those investments will not be for naught, right. I mean, they will help for sure. Number one, there’s something that they can enjoy now. But moving forward once rates hopefully do drop a little bit, they’ll be poised to be able to move quickly and have their house market ready.
Brittney Cleveland
Exactly. And normally, if I have a past client who’s taking on a project, they do consult with me first and say, Hey, what do you think? And my very first question is, well, are you going to enjoy it? Because I think that’s so important. I don’t want to see you pour money into your home just for the sake of it. And I can say with certainty that every time someone has put money into their outdoor living, they have not regretted it because it becomes a space that they find themselves spending so much more time fully enjoying and not just themselves but friends and family. I talked about hosting and entertaining earlier. People find themselves outside a lot more when they choose to make improvements to their outdoor living spaces. I’ve never heard of a client regretting improving outdoor living.
Joe Raboine
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, same for me. It’s always, I would say the reaction is, is why didn’t I do this earlier? Right?
Brittney Cleveland
Exactly, always. I always hear that.
Joe Raboine
Yeah, yeah. No, that’s perfect. One of the other trends that we see happening, again, because of the interest rates and kind of the current situation with housing, is that there are more and more multi-generational houses. And we believe, we’re starting to see signs of it, that that’s going to impact the design of the home for one, which will start in the home, but obviously inevitably leads to the outside. So are you, are you seeing a shift to that at all in your market?
Brittney Cleveland
I am it’s funny because I know I keep using COVID as like a benchmark but talking before COVID everyone wanted that open living space where you could see every room in the house the second you open the front door. That has totally changed and now people like to have space and separation because we are seeing more multi generational properties and in-law suites and au pair suites and that has definitely changed we’re seeing less of the open living, but that’s more in terms of, you know, within the house. But outside of the house, it’s been important to homeowners too, just because they want to feel like they have, I hate to say it like this, but other places to escape to. If you have lots of people in a home, you want to have more living spaces. And if you have outdoor living, that just adds to the list of places where you can spend time and feel some form of separation from everyone else living in the house.
Joe Raboine
Yeah, no, I think we’re all, I mean, that’s just part of being human, right? It’s, uh, you’re that in that type of situation you want, you need that space.
Brittney Cleveland
Right.
Joe Raboine
Um, and I think too, with people, more and more people working remotely, um, that’s impacting it as well, or maybe, you know, finding a place to get away and have a, a video call or, you know, work on something is important. I think it again, it’s a supports what we believe is happening and, um,
We’re encouraging our designers and contractors to talk about that, talk about multi-generational houses or even aging in place. There’s a lot of people again, who are locked into homes that are either paid off or they’re low interest that they want to stay there and they want to make it something that they can utilize for the rest of their lives. And I think that outdoor space is often overlooked, thinking about.
you know, ramps and zero transitions and, you know, the physical connection with the outdoor and how you would navigate, you know, into a grill area, for instance. It seems like something that wouldn’t be as big as it is, but there certainly are lots of people in those types of situations who I think are looking for that.
So Brittany, I always ask this question when wrapping up a show with our guests. When you think about it, it is that you do. What is the most fulfilling part of your job, would you say?
Brittney Cleveland
I would say that it’s seeing the direct impact that I make on people’s lives so clearly. I came from corporate America where I was behind a computer all day. I didn’t really get to interact with people and I didn’t see how I was changing the world around me and impacting people’s lives and getting to work so closely with both buyers and sellers. Normally, during big milestones in their life has been so special and I just love having the opportunity to grow and form relationships with people all across Atlanta. And it’s been really special just to have those friendships carry with me. I become friends with a lot of my clients and it is just such a rewarding career and I absolutely love it.
Joe Raboine
Awesome. Well, good. Well, we appreciate you joining the podcast. We, uh, it’s always, it’s a pleasure to have our guests on the show. We’ve, we’ve never had a realtor such as yourself on here. So it’s interesting to hear that perspective for sure. And hopefully our audience, um, got some good information from this and will be reaching out to realtors and brokers throughout the country and setting up some networking meetings to get to know each other.
Brittney Cleveland
Yeah, absolutely. And I say that I mean, it’s a benefit to y’all, but also to us as agents, because we’re always looking to expand our network and list of contractors that we refer clients to. And it just helps us think creatively too, when we’re out showing property.
Joe Raboine
Awesome, well thanks again for joining us, Brittany. Really appreciate it and look forward to learning more.
Brittney Cleveland
Of course, thanks for having me, Joe. Have a good one.
Joe Raboine
Thank you, you too.
Thanks again for joining us on Inside Out with Belgard. Make sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode, and please leave us a rating and review! Head over to Belgard.com/InsideOut. To find hardscape educational resources, product details, design inspiration and more, visit Belgard.com, and keep up with us on social media at Belgard Outdoor Living on Instagram and Facebook, and Belgard Hardscapes on YouTube. Join us again next time on Inside Out with Belgard.
